Transcript

Host: This is “On the Line,” and I’m Eric Felten.

Officials of the Organization of American States, or OAS, are scheduled to meet in Washington March 17th as part of the effort to resolve the dispute between Colombia and its neighbors Ecuador and Venezuela. At the beginning of March, Colombia sent military forces into Ecuador to attack a base of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, a terrorist group known by the Spanish acronym “FARC.” Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez denounced the raid as a violation of Ecuador’s sovereignty and broke off diplomatic relations with Colombia. Ecuador followed suit. But after a summit arranged by the OAS to defuse the crisis, diplomatic relations have been restored.

This coming week, OAS ministers will review the findings of an investigation into Colombia’s action in Ecuador. Leading the investigation is OAS Secretary-General José Miguel Insulza. As part of the inquiry, he has already traveled to the FARC camp in Ecuador that Colombia destroyed. Mr. Insulza says that he found that the camp had been a permanent FARC base.

U.S. State Department Spokesman Sean McCormack says the United States is concerned that Colombia’s neighbors are allowing the FARC to use their territory to stage attacks in Colombia:

McCormack: "There are continuing questions about states allowing the FARC, a terrorist organization, to operate in the border areas with Colombia. And it’s not just -- The issue, you could say, is a more generic one of allowing terrorist organizations to operate in these less well-governed areas along border regions."

Host: In the raid on the camp in Ecuador, Colombia killed the FARC’s second-in-command: Raúl Reyes. Colombian forces also captured his laptop computers, which are proving to be a treasure trove of information about the FARC’s dealings with arms merchants, drug dealers, other terrorist groups, and most alarmingly, leaders of Venezuela and Ecuador:

McCormack: "I expect that that's probably going to be a continuing discussion as the Colombian government and others are able to look at the contents of the laptop, which they say they have discovered, and to really trace back some of those links between the FARC and states and individuals in the region."

Host: Documents inside the FARC computers suggest that the terrorist group secretly donated money to the presidential campaign of Ecuador’s President Rafael Correa. The documents also indicate that Venezuela was funding FARC with hundreds of millions of dollars.

What next in the fight against FARC? I’ll ask my guests: Ambassador Roger Noriega, former Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs and a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute; and a senior policy analyst at RAND, Angel Rabasa. Welcome. Thanks for joining us today.

Roger Noriega, let’s start by talking about this OAS investigation that’s part of this agreement to resolve the dispute. What’s the investigation trying to determine, and what’s likely to come of it?

Noriega: The Ecuadorians, first and foremost, want the investigation to validate their claims that Colombian forces came over into this camp.

Host: Now, is Colombia denying that in any way?

Noriega: They’re not disputing it, but the Ecuadorians want to substantiate it to the extent they can that it wasn’t hot pursuit, that sort of thing. The Colombians want, I think, the OAS commission to take a much broader view, to, first and foremost, recognize that this was a well-established camp that’s been there for a long time and that it is one of really a hundred and twenty sort of installations of this kind that operate in Ecuadorian and Venezuelan territory. I think the Colombians need to press the diplomacy here, not just the investigation, the forensic investigation. They’ll look at these laptops and validate the documents and all of that that substantiate a terrorist alliance between Chávez, perhaps Correa, and the FARC. This puts Chávez and Correa and their governments on the wrong side of the law, in terms of their international obligations to deny safe haven to terrorist groups and, certainly, not to provide financial and political support to terrorist groups. So I think the Colombians need to press their diplomacy, to say, “We have a right to defend ourselves. And more to the point, these other countries are violating international law by supporting these terrorists.”

Host: Angel Rabasa, is the OAS really an organization that’s about to press an investigation that’s going to determine that member states are violating international law?

Rabasa: I think there may be some reluctance on the part of some countries, for political reasons, to push this to the point of condemning Ecuador and Venezuela for allowing the FARC, a terrorist organization, to maintain sanctuaries within their territory. However, the OAS can perform a useful function to the extent that it validates, through technical analysis, the documents that were found in the Raúl Reyes laptop. And I think that this is really the most important aspect of this incident -- is the capture of this laptop that contained documents that deeply incriminated both the Venezuelan and the Ecuadorian governments in collusion to the FARC to a degree that was not suspected before.

Host: Let’s talk a little bit about these laptops. And it seems as though, already, there’s action that’s been taken based on information. A notorious alleged arms dealer has been arrested in Bangkok. And word is that this was, in part, based on information that authorities were able to get from this laptop computer.

Rabasa: Yes, that’s the information that I have. Of course, it has long been known that the FARC had these links to arms dealers, drug dealers, other international terrorist organizations. This goes back a long way. You’ll recall that some bomb-makers from the Irish Republican Army were captured in Colombia when they were in the process of teaching bombing techniques to the FARC. So, this is not new. What’s new is the involvement of governments with the FARC in efforts to overthrow the Colombian government. And, for instance, one of the documents that was found in the Reyes computer was a communication from Raúl Reyes to the Minister of Internal Security of Ecuador, who had met with Reyes as an emissary of President Correa. And in this communication, Reyes talks about the Ecuadorian willingness to remove military officials from the border who were hostile to the FARC. They asked the FARC for information. They asked the FARC for cooperation in indoctrinating and organizing the population on the border. Now, this is very, very serious.

Host: How serious, Roger Noriega?

Noriega: It means that -- It implicates, apparently, these two governments in an aggression against a neighbor. They have international obligations, both at the Organization of American States and the United Nations, to deny safe haven to terrorists. These documents, if they’re validated -- and we have no reason to doubt their authenticity -- seem to suggest that there is an essential alliance driven by the ideology of these two leftist presidents, Hugo Chávez and Rafael Correa, to aid and abet the FARC’s armed struggle against a sovereign neighbor. It’s extraordinarily serious, and that’s why I think the Colombians should not be on the defensive on this under any circumstances. They are acting in their own self-defense within the parameters of international law, defending themselves against this sort of aggression. And hopefully, they will be very aggressive with the support of some self-respecting governments in the region to say, “There were violations of international law here, and it was on the part of Chávez and on the part of Correa.” It may have very serious implications, as well, for these governments at home.

Host: Let’s talk about Venezuela a bit. What do the computer files show, specifically, about the relationship between FARC and Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez?

Noriega: Just several points -- It reflects a relationship that goes back to the early 1990s, where the FARC apparently made cash payments to Chávez while he was in jail after the coup attempt against the democratically elected government there in 1992.

Host: This was Chávez’s original coup attempt against the democratically elected Venezuelan government.

Noriega: Right, absolutely, in 1992, against a democratically elected government. It failed. He was in jail for a couple of years. And in that period of time, he was getting support from the FARC, apparently. They allude to that in these documents. There’s also a commitment by Chávez to provide three hundred million dollars in cash to the FARC, as well as armaments. And they talk in some detail, these documents, about getting the right kinds of arms -- “Just make sure that we get effective lethal equipment.” So this is extraordinarily serious.

Host: Angel Rabasa. Yes. But go ahead.

Rabasa: Can I add to this? Because there is one aspect of this that could have very profound consequences. And according to some media reports -- I mean, “The Miami Herald” had a story -- the U.S. government has opened an internal discussion on whether, on the basis of these documents, if Venezuela should be declared a state sponsor of terrorism, because the FARC is a terrorist group.

Host: To the list that currently includes Iran, Syria.

Rabasa: Yes, it includes the FARC as a -- Yes, the state-sponsored list includes Syria. Now, the FARC is a terrorist organization on the U.S. State Department list. It’s on the European Union list of terrorist organizations. The documents seem to indicate very clearly that the Venezuelan government was providing support to terrorist organizations. And on the basis of what we know, it would seem very difficult to me to see how declaring Venezuela a state sponsor of terrorism could be avoided.

Host: Roger Noriega, what is the likelihood of that? And let’s talk a little bit about how the U.S. has responded or tried to respond to this, which is, the U.S. has been awfully quiet about this whole affair and has certainly not been at the fore of responding to it.

Noriega: I think we recognize that, if the United States speaks up too loudly, it will make this a bilateral confrontation, which will be a pretext for Chávez to announce this is some sort of imperial gesture on our part, make Colombia look like it’s a puppet of ours, and all of the other Latin countries will run for cover. Having said that, we have to practice pretty forceful diplomacy in all this, if nothing else, in private and discreetly. For example, the resolution that the OAS approved -- and I don’t want to get too down in the weeds -- asserts that, somehow, Colombia violated international law and that territory’s inviolate. Look, if you do not deny terrorists the right to use your territory with impunity, you forfeit your rights, and the Colombians have a right to self-defense in attacking those folks. This is important.

Host: And certainly, the U.S. has made it a practice and policy that if, in an uncontrolled part of territory that some state doesn’t have control over, if terrorists are operating out of that territory, the U.S. certainly reserves the right to go after those terrorists in that territory.

Noriega: Apparently, we do. And there are some obvious fresh evidence of our policy. The other, broader point is, or specific point, as Angel was referring to, is the designation of Venezuela as a state sponsor of terrorism. This will have a devastating impact on our economic relations, clearly, if we go that far. And so there will be bureaucrats, in particular, and some policymakers, who will be loathe to take that sort of step, but it might be unavoidable, if driven by -- if this documentation turns out.

Rabasa: It's driven by the evidence. You can't avoid it.

Noriega: Right, precisely.

Rabasa: And if we were to, in the light of incontrovertible evidence that, indeed, Chávez was supporting a terrorist organization, it could undermine our fundamental position vis-à-vis international terrorism.

Host: Angel Rabasa, let’s also talk a little bit -- There seem to have been documents on his computer that lay out not just support by Hugo Chávez, but also strategy sessions and a whole strategy being developed of how to get an ally elected in Colombia. What do these documents tell us, not just about the relationship with the FARC, but beyond that, the strategy that Hugo Chávez has for the region as a whole?

Rabasa: I think you’re absolutely right. Beyond the specific information about support for the FARC, what the documents lay out is this strategy that Chávez has of becoming the dominant force in the Andean region -- overthrowing the Colombian government by supporting the internal opposition. And indeed, the FARC seems to be functioning within this strategic concept as Chávez’s private army in Colombia. It is a much larger strategy than just Colombia or Venezuela or Ecuador. It has some very, very ambitious goals, and the FARC is one piece within this larger strategy.

Host: Roger Noriega, how are these revelations being greeted in the region, within Venezuela, within Colombia?

Noriega: Within the region, there are some who take sort of a jaundiced view about the authenticity of these documents, but I think that will be put to rest with this investigation and the Europeans and other folks taking a look at this material and validating it. They, I think, recognize the Colombians are in a tough spot when this armed group is operating with impunity in neighboring countries. And so I think there’s a certain level of sympathy for the Colombians. I don’t want to get out ahead of your discussion here, but what’s just as important is how they’re being greeted in Venezuela. They place Chávez using the largess of the Venezuelan state to support a terrorist group, that same terrorist group, which happens to be terrorizing, kidnapping, robbing, killing Venezuelans in their territory -- and Chávez’s saber rattling against Colombia has disrupted very, very important commercial ties. So I think it’s cost him dearly at home. I don’t want to overstate it, but I think he doesn’t have much room to maneuver, because of the economic shambles that he’s made of that economy. But it’s been very tough for people in Venezuela to understand, I think, that -- why is their money being used to support terrorists?

Host: Angel Rabasa.

Rabasa: Could I add to what Roger said? I think that one element of Chávez’s very violent reaction to the death of Reyes -- And I think it’s interesting to note that, even though Reyes was killed within Ecuadorian territory, the person to lead the charge was Chávez, and the Ecuadorians only followed. And I believe that an element in this reaction was a desire to divert attention from a very dire internal situation by playing up an external enemy. And the Colombians, I think, reacted very wisely by not sending troops to the border in reaction to Chávez’s provocation. And I agree with what Roger said, that this has probably damaged Chávez domestically. The economic situation in Venezuela is very dire. Oil production is down. Chávez had to -- The government, the Venezuelan government had to obtain loans of five billion to six billion dollars in total from China and Japan against future oil earnings. There is known discontent within the military. So he’s facing some very intractable problems. The economic difficulties mean that his sphere of action is receding. And I think that we will be seeing more of these efforts to generate some sort of external confrontation to divert attention from domestic problems.

Host: Let’s talk – We’ve got about two minutes left, and we’ve talked about the OAS, about the U.S. What role is there for other governments and organizations, whether it’s the European Union, the United Nations, in dealing with this? Part of the FARC tragedy has involved kidnappings and hostage-takings, and there are several prominent people with ties to Europe who are being held by the FARC. And Hugo Chávez has put himself forward as the person who can negotiate with the FARC to win their release. The release of Ingrid Betancourt has not come yet. What should the policy of the European Union, the U.N. be in responding to this?

Noriega: Their primary policy should be holding Venezuela accountable for its support for terrorist groups, which still holds seven hundred, eight hundred hostages, including three Americans. I would hope that they will not appease the FARC and apparently don’t intend to do so, but they have to hold Chávez accountable for his support for this terrorist organization. And I do not have much confidence in the OAS, because of Venezuela’s very dominant role in the organization, so the U.N. might have to be involved.

Host: We have 30 seconds left. Angel Rabasa, U.N. role?

Rabasa: I don’t see that much of a U.N. role. I mean, you have, within the Security Council, countries like Russia, China, and some other Europeans who might be unlikely to really take a strong stand against Chávez. I think that the impact of this will be seen not so much at the international level, but in U.S. bilateral relations with Venezuela, if the U.S. were to declare Venezuela a state sponsor of terrorism, and we’ll see it domestically within Venezuela and within Colombia.

Host: I’m afraid that’s going to have to be the last word. We’re out of time for today, but I’d like to thank my guests: Ambassador Roger Noriega, former Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs and a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute; and senior policy analyst at RAND, Angel Rabasa. Before we go, I’d like to invite you to send us your questions or comments. You can reach us through our website at www.voanews.com/ontheline. For “On the Line,” I’m Eric Felten.