Transcript:
The Inside Story: Uncertainty in Russia, Fear in China
Episode 98 – June 29, 2023
Show Open:
This week on The inside Story: Uncertainty in Russia... Fear in China.
A mutiny by the leader of the Russian paramilitary Wagner Group and the dramatic challenge to the Putin regime.
What happened? What are world leaders saying about the Kremlin? And what does this mean for the war in Ukraine?
Plus, the VOA mini-doc series, "From Fear to Freedom."
See what life is like for China’s Uyghur population.
Now... The Inside Story... Uncertainty in Russia... Fear in China.
The Inside Story:
JESSICA JERREAT, VOA Press Freedom Editor:
Welcome to The Inside Story, I’m Jessica Jerreat in Washington.
Today, we’re going to focus on the plight of the Uyghur people in China.
It is a tale of repression, mass arrest, and family separation.
But before that, we’re going to try to shed some light on what exactly is happening between Russian President Vladimir Putin, and Wagner Group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin.
It is a tale of two men and three countries: Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.
All that today on The Inside Story.
An attempted mutiny in Russia seems to have fallen flat about a day after it began.
The destabilizing and dramatic events followed a rebellion by Russian paramilitary Wagner Group founder Yevgeny Prigozhin against top leaders in Putin’s government.
Prigozhin publicly blames the Kremlin for mishandling the war in Ukraine, leaving his fighters “in heaps.”
Yevgueni Prigozhin, Wagner Group Leader:
We have daily losses of up to 1,000 people. This includes those killed, those missing and those injured and those who are refusing - who don't want to fight: not because they are cowards but because they have no choice, no weapons supplies, no command structure.
Putin called the move treason.
Vladimir Putin, Russian President:
What we’re facing is exactly internal betrayal. Extraordinary ambitions and personal interests led to treason. Treason of their own country and people and of the case that fighters of Wagner were dying for alongside our soldiers.
The showdown of Wagner mercenaries advancing on Moscow posed the biggest threat to-date of Putin’s 23-year reign in Russia.
And world leaders took notice.
Western governments say the attempted coup shows weakness at the highest levels of the Kremlin, with European Union Foreign Policy Chief Josep Borrell saying this was Putin being bitten by the monster he created.
China meanwhile, remains publicly steadfast in its support of Russia.
And while the rebellion was short – fewer than 24-hours from start to finish – big questions remain about Putin’s grip on the country.
Not to mention what all this means for Ukrainians fighting on the frontlines against a Russian military widely believed to be demoralized.
A lot to unpack here, so let’s begin with VOA’s White House Correspondent Anita Powell for the reaction from Washington.
We’ll then join VOA Correspondent Heather Murdock on the frontlines in Ukraine.
Travel to VOA’s Moscow Bureau for the scene inside Russia…
And, we’ll hear from VOA Correspondent Henry Ridgewell all contributing to this report.
ANITA POWELL, VOA White House Correspondent:
Over the weekend, Wagner Group chief Yevgeny Prigozhin halted his fighters’ march just 200 kilometers from Moscow and accepted a Kremlin offer for him to go to Belarus. That, in effect, could neutralize him and his mercenaries.
What this all means to Washington is another story.
On Monday, questions continued to swirl.
John Kirby, National Security Council:
I think I'd be fibbing to you if I told you that there was some sort of big agenda change because of what happened over the weekend. We'll have to see how this plays out.
ANITA POWELL:
He said President Joe Biden was briefed “hourly” on events over the weekend. And on Monday, Biden answered one critical question:
President Joe Biden:
We made clear that we were not involved. We had nothing to do with it. This is part of a struggle within the Russian system.
ANITA POWELL:
In an address Monday, Putin appeared to question that:
Vladimir Putin, Russian President:
It was precisely this outcome — fratricide — that Russia's enemies wanted: both the neo-Nazis in Kyiv, and their Western patrons, and all sorts of national traitors.
Analyst Leon Aron told VOA that one thing is clear.
Leon Aron, American Enterprise Institute:
I think the friendship is probably over. And the question is whether Putin can forgive Prigozhin.
Now, the Belarusian leader, Alexander Lukashenko, probably does not sneeze before checking it with Putin. So, whatever guarantees he gave to Prigozhin may not be worth the paper or the phone call they were conveyed on.
ANITA POWELL:
Prigozhin’s troops halted their advance just a few hours from Moscow.
In an audio statement released Monday, Prigozhin said he sent tanks in Moscow’s direction to “express our protest, not to oust the government.”
Anita Powell, VOA News, the White House.
JONATHAN SPIER, VOA News:
Wagner mercenary troops occupied the southern Russian city of Rostov-on-Don on Saturday for about 12 hours, encountering little resistance as they seized the local military headquarters.
Russian officials have flooded the media with assurances that Putin emerged stronger from this short crisis. But international observers say on the contrary, the Russian leader’s weaknesses have been irreversibly exposed.
Keir Giles, Chatham House:
This destroys the myth that Putin has cultivated so hard of being completely in control and having a firm grip of power throughout the country. That is plainly no longer the case. And the Prigozhin incident sets an extremely dangerous precedent for power in Russia. Once other people see that this can be done and it can be survived, there will be other challenges.
JONATHAN SPIER:
Now the Russian authorities are working to cover up the tracks of the Wagner Group, which until last week was praised by Kremlin propaganda.
Observers believe that whatever deal Putin has made with Prigozhin, a dark future awaits the mercenary leader.
Keir Giles, Chatham House:
Whatever happens, for the rest of his life he will be a man looking over his shoulder because he will now be “a marked man.” He has challenged power in Russia and so far, survived. The question is for how long?
JONATHAN SPIER:
Calm has returned, at least for the moment, to the streets in Russia, but after the acute crisis last weekend, analysts say the events of the last few days may be a precursor to something bigger.
For the VOA Moscow Bureau, Jonathan Spier, VOA News.
HEATHER MURDOCK, VOA Correspondent:
While many Ukrainians anxiously watched the recent chaos in Russia, hoping their foe will defeat or at least weaken itself, soldiers on the front lines battled on.
They say there have been no observable changes in the field, and Russian forces continue lob artillery at Ukrainians, who are now on the offensive.
Bogdan, Ukrainian combat soldier:
When we are on the offensive, conducting an assault, our artillery works first, and most of the Russian soldiers flee their positions. Only a few stays, maybe two or three soldiers. But then we throw a couple grenades and that is the end.
HEATHER MURDOCK:
Like many soldiers fighting in Ukraine weeks-old counteroffensive, he says he has overheard panicked Russian soldiers complaining about lack of ammunition and reinforcements.
But soldiers also say the battles have been fierce, as Russian troops have had more than a year to build fortifications and devise strategies to hold this area.
Ivan, Ukrainian military Medic:
If you are also monitoring the situation, you know that the offensive and the liberation of cities are not progressing as fast as we would like. But they are progressing quite well.
HEATHER MURDOCK:
Once a picturesque string of quaint villages, Ukraine’s battle here is for what has become an abandoned wasteland.
In more peaceful Ukrainian cities and towns, locals say they hope that Russian infighting will speed the end of this war but it’s hard to say if that will happen.
What’s obvious, they add, is that the death and destruction they have already suffered make it impossible for it to ever end all that happily.
Valentina Yefimenko, Zaporizhzhya resident:
How many young people died? How many became disabled? The things can be rebuilt, but we cannot bring people's lives back.
HEATHER MURDOCK:
Besides more than a year of shelling, Zaporizhzhya has suffered from the destruction of the Kokhova Dam that killed dozens and turned this region’s reservoir into a massive desert, leaving locals to try to stave off what is now a looming food and water crisis.
But in the combat zone, soldiers say as battle rage on, it’s impossible to look beyond what they say is their most immediate goal.
Yuri, Ukrainian combat soldier:
We are doing everything to make it all end as soon as possible. I would say we are motivated. We want to go home. We understand that we will not go home until our mother Ukraine is free and intact.
He says for soldiers, the war will only end if or when Ukraine is victorious, which means, for them, retaking all of the land internationally recognized as Ukraine.
Heather Murdock, VOA News, Storozheve, Ukraine.
HENRY RIDGWELL, Reporting for VOA:
The chaos in Russia is making Warsaw nervous.
Mateusz Morawiecki, Polish Prime Minister:
We don't know, and no one in the world knows, what were the real reasons behind the events.
HENRY RIDGWELL:
European Union foreign policy chief Josep Borrell said the mutiny revealed weakness in the leadership of Russian President Vladimir Putin.
Josep Borrell, EU Foreign Policy Chief:
The monster that Putin created with Wagner, the monster is biting him now. That monster is acting against his creator. The political system is showing fragilities, and the military power is cracking.
HENRY RIDGWELL:
British Foreign Secretary James Cleverly noted that Prigozhin had questioned Putin’s justification for the invasion of Ukraine.
James Cleverly, UK Foreign Secretary:
The Russian government's lies have been exposed by one of President Putin's own henchmen.
HENRY RIDGWELL:
NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg echoed that view.
Jens Stoltenberg, NATO Secretary-General:
Yet another demonstration of the big strategic mistake that President Putin made with his illegal annexation of Crimea and the war against Ukraine.
HENRY RIDGWELL:
Can Ukraine take advantage of the turmoil in Russia?
Gen. Philip Breedlove, Former Commander of US European Command:
Certainly, this begins to open some doors of opportunity, but we don't go rushing headlong through them. We take them as they are applicable to the plan that Ukraine has already set out.
HENRY RIDGWELL:
Meanwhile Moscow’s ally China described the attempted mutiny as a ‘Russian internal affair’.
Mao Ning, China Ministry of Foreign Affairs Spokesperson:
China supports Russia in maintaining national stability and achieving development and prosperity.
HENRY RIDGWELL:
European Union member states agreed Monday to boost a special fund used to finance military aid for Ukraine by 3.8 billion dollars — raising its ceiling to over 13 billion dollars.
Henry Ridgwell, for VOA News, London.
JESSICA JERREAT:
We’ll continue to monitor the events in Russia, but now we move to China, for a tale in three parts about the Uyghurs, an ethnic group living predominantly in Xinjiang, Northwest China.
In a new documentary, From Fear to Freedom, VOA looks at the struggles of Uyghurs living under Chinese repression.
We begin with the story of Kasim Kashgar, a reporter who works for VOA’s Mandarin service.
For decades, Kashgar lived in fear: first as a Uyghur in Xinjiang, where he was repeatedly questioned by police, and later as an exile, acutely aware that speaking out could put family in China at risk.
Kashgar fled to the U.S. where he now has asylum—and the courage to speak out. He shares his story with Elizabeth Lee.
ELIZABETH LEE, VOA Correspondent:
Fear can be paralyzing…
Kasim Kashgar, Uyghur in Exile:
You just lie in your bed but you can't just get up.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Fear also pushed Kasim Kashgar to do something he never thought possible.
Kasim Kashgar, Uyghur in Exile:
I didn't want to leave my home country.
ELIZABETH LEE:
With Beijing persecuting Uyghurs in Xinjiang, and police repeatedly calling him in for questioning, Kashgar fled China in 2017. He ended up in the U.S., eventually landing a job as a journalist at Voice of America. But the Uyghur reporter still feared what the Chinese government would do to his family back home if he wrote under his own name.
Kasim Kashgar, Uyghur in Exile:
I've seen dozens of friends, personal mentors, teachers and some relatives
being targeted. They had been interned, imprisoned, killed.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Uyghur experts — including Sean Roberts, author of the 2020 book "The War on the Uyghurs" — say that of the estimated 11 million Uyghurs living mostly in Xinjiang, more than 1 million have been detained in mass camps.
Sean Roberts, 'The War on the Uyghurs' Author:
These arrests have been ethnically profiled, mean(ing) that all Uyghurs are under constant fear of the potential that they might be detained, arrested.
ELIZABETH LEE:
The U.S. and several other countries have accused Beijing of genocide. The Chinese Embassy in the U.S. declined an interview but directed VOA to comments stating that the camps were vocational centers and that China's policies were justified in the wake of terror attacks.
Shohrat Zakir, Xinjiang Governor:
Some anti-China forces in the United States and the West ignore the fact that the people of Xinjiang are living a better life. They stigmatize and demonize Xinjiang with no bottom line, reason or grounds and even fabricate the lie of the century of genocide.
ELIZABETH LEE:
While living in China, Kashgar won several English-speaking competitions — this one airing on Chinese state TV. But the publicity caught the attention of authorities.
He says police even tried to recruit him to work overseas, to spy on Uyghur rights organizations.
Kasim Kashgar, Uyghur in Exile:
I was disgusted. I felt dishonored.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Instead, Kashgar started a language school. But as China’s repression increased, authorities began interrogating him, and people he knew started disappearing.
Fearing he too could be “disappeared,” Kashgar fled with his wife and young daughter.
At VOA, Kashgar now reports on Xinjiang and China’s minorities.
Kasim Kashgar, Uyghur in Exile:
At the end, I would feel joy and comfort in doing this because I know that I am
making some impact in letting the world know what is happening.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Knowing that silence is no guarantee of safety, Kashgar says he is ready to share his stories and those of others by writing under his real name.
Elizabeth Lee, VOA News, Washington.
JESSICA JERREAT:
We just saw the risks for Uyghurs trying to escape Xinjiang, but even those who return to their homeland face danger.
Take Mihrigul Tursun . She returned to her home city in 2015 so her family could meet her months-old triplets.
But at the airport, officials separated her from her babies and took Tursun away.
What came next still haunts the young mother. Here, she
recalls the events that forever changed her life.
Mihrigul Tursun was visiting China’s Xinjiang region in 2015 when authorities separated the Uyghur mother from her months-old triplets and detained her. In an interview with VOA’s Elizabeth Lee, she recalls the harrowing months inside Xinjiang’s notorious detention camps and the pain of losing her son.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Mihrigul Tursun is keeping a painful secret from her children — the truth about their sibling Mohanned.
Mihrigul Tursun, Uyghur in Exile:
Sometimes they ask, ‘Mom, we have three kids. Where is one?’
When they are grown up, I will let them know, ‘You have actually one brother. He die by the Chinese government — killed him.
ELIZABETH LEE:
In this book, “What has happened to me,” Tursun has shared her story.
A Uyghur from China’s northwest Xinjiang region, Tursun moved to Egypt for graduate school.
There she met and married an Egyptian man and gave birth to triplets.
In 2015, during a visit to China so her parents could meet their 2-month-old grandchildren, Tursun’s life turned upside down.
At the airport, she says, police separated her from her babies, and then they took her away.
Mihrigul Tursun, Uyghur in Exile:
Tape my mouth, then give my head black hood and then handcuffs to take me to, from the airport to Urumqi prison.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Fergus Shiel has heard similar stories. He managed an international journalism project that analyzed and reported on evidence of mass internment camps, as revealed in Chinese documents leaked to the outside world.
Fergus Shiel, International Consortium of Investigative Journalists:
One of the quickest ways you can get yourself into a detention camp — this is really quick, you're on the fast track — is to either have a passport or to be returning from overseas.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Several countries, including the U.S., call China’s treatment of the Uyghurs genocide. China denies that, saying it is fighting extremists.
Cui Tiankai, Then Chinese Ambassador to US:
From 1990 to 2016, there have been thousands of incidents related to violent terrorists, injuring innocents and creating tremendous losses. To target these incidents, the Chinese government implemented a proper and powerful policy to support Xinjiang.
ELIZABETH LEE:
China claims the detention facilities are vocational centers.
Tursun has a different view. She spent close to three months in detention before the police briefly freed her, saying her children — Moez, Elina and Mohanned — were sick. She is still haunted by what was waiting for her.
Mihrigul Tursun, Uyghur in Exile:
Your son Mohanned passed away this morning, so we put his body in the freezer. How my kid is die and in the morning put in the freezer like ice cream?”
Shave my hair, give torture.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Tursun says police detained her three times and tortured her with electric shocks.
With help from the Egyptian Embassy and her husband, Tursun was finally released from custody, three years after arriving in China. She fled with her two children, first to Egypt and then to the U.S., where she spoke about her ordeal.
But doing so prompted Chinese state media CGTN to air a report showing this photo more than once suggesting the photo is of Mohanned.
But if you listen carefully, Tursun’s mother is saying this photo is of Moez, her grandson who survived.
Tursun says China is forcing her family to discredit her, but she doesn’t mind.
Mihrigul Tursun, Uyghur in Exile:
Near 7 years I don’t have any contact with them.
ELIZABETH LEE:
While in detention, Tursun promised God that if she was released, she would speak out and give voice to those still detained.
Elizabeth Lee, VOA News, Washington.
JESSICA JERREAT:
As we saw, China denies and dismisses claims that Uyghurs are abused.
But bringing awareness to what is happening in Xinjiang has become the passion of activist, Zubayra Shamseden.
Motivated by a deadly protest in her hometown and the jailing of her brother, Shamseden now devotes her career to exposing abuses.
We go back to Elizabeth Lee who has more on this story.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Zubayra Shamseden can never return to her homeland.
Zubayra Shamseden, Uyghur Human Rights Project:
If I was in China, I don't think I will be alive.
ELIZABETH LEE:
As a Uyghur living in the U.S., Shamseden is devoted to fighting against what she and many other organizations worldwide say are injustices against Uyghurs in China, especially in the Xinjiang region.
As Chinese outreach coordinator for the group Uyghur Human Rights Project, she tries to educate Mandarin speakers about what is happening there.
Zubayra Shamseden, Uyghur Human Rights Project:
Uyghurs [are] either detained in the concentration camps or detained in the slave, slave labor, Chinese factories.
ELIZABETH LEE:
A 2022 United Nations report found China responsible for “serious human rights violations.” The U.S. and other Western countries have accused China of actions akin to genocide in Xinjiang.
In response to VOA’s inquiry, the Chinese Embassy in Washington sent links to statements by officials about Beijing’s policy in the region.
Cui Tiankai, Chinese Ambassador to the US:
The Uyghur population in Xinjiang has more than doubled in the past four decades. Where did the genocide come from? Forced labor is also nonsense. Workers in Xinjiang choose occupations entirely according to their own wishes.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Chinese officials say its policies in Xinjiang have helped suppress terrorism.
Shamseden says members of her own family have experienced violence under China’s Xinjiang policy. In 1997, in the city that Uyghurs call Ghulja, a protest calling for equal treatment turned deadly.
Zubayra Shamseden, Uyghur Human Rights Project:
It's kind of [a] turning point in my life. In 1997, the Ghulja massacre happened, which is my hometown, and many [of] my family members became direct victims of that massacre.
Zubayra Shamseden, Uyghur Human Rights Project:
One of my brother[s], he is still in prison as a political prisoner because of his connection with the Ghulja protests.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Shamseden decided to switch her career from computers to law and international relations which led her to activist work in the U.S.
China sees what happened in 1997 differently, as shown in this state media report that uses the city’s Chinese name, Yining.
CGTN reporter narration:
Among some of the worst incidents, the 1997 Yining terror attack, which left seven dead and 198 wounded.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Beijing also says Xinjiang is benefiting from its counterterrorism efforts.
English speaking narration form Chinese State TV:
This is a land of harmony and stability where people from various ethnic backgrounds live and work in peace and contentment.
Fergus Shiel, International Consortium of Investigative Journalists:
There are Uyghurs all around the world that are, can tell you that they are not living a safe, happy and fulfilling life, despite what Beijing says.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Shamseden says even those who are not in prison are still not free and live under digital and physical surveillance.
Zubayra Shamseden, Uyghur Human Rights Project:
Uyghurs have no space to breathe.
ELIZABETH LEE:
Because of her work, Shamseden says her relatives in China are under surveillance and travel and communications restrictions. But it is her connection to that repression, she says, that compels her to fight for the rights of Uyghurs.
Elizabeth Lee, VOA News, Washington.
JESSICA JERREAT:
Stay up to date with all the news at VOANews.com.
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Catch up on past episodes at our free streaming service, VOA Plus.
For all of those behind the scenes who brought you today’s show, I’m Jessica Jerreat.
We’ll see you next week for The Inside Story.
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